An all-round chat with the army corps general Marco Bertolini on Patria, honor, shared values and his new commitment as national president of the ANPd'I.
"... The ANPd'I section of Rome? It is very active, has a president (Adriano Tocchi, ed) full of charisma and thus manages to be towing ..."
A little like you, general. We are expecting big things, as a newly elected president of the National Parachute Association of Italy
No, I play in a role that is not mine, for me it's all to prove.
Is it therefore also a challenge?
In fact, I am calm from this point of view, indeed, I am happy because it is a new experience ...
Marco Bertolini is a man with a straight back, one who has a strong sense of the state and who loves the country, who would like to see this country pacified seriously and that the Italians become aware of their potential and ability, instead of crumpling up on themselves , self-extinguishing every day more.
General of army corps, raider and paratrooper, Bertolini was commander of the brigade thunderbolt, of the 9 ° Col Moschin and of the COI (Operational Command of Interforze Summit), the last one of his duties in active service. Curriculum that speaks for itself, in the 44 years of service has participated in many missions abroad with the Italian contingents, from Lebanon where in the 1982 was injured and was then conferred a War Cross at Military Valor, Somalia, Bosnia, Afghanistan and Kosovo. Most of the soldiers have always loved him for righteousness and courage, in areas of war as at home, even when he expresses his opinion, never predictable. Like the military, many of us "civilians" who in various capacities deal with the Armed Forces, we would have wanted him still in active service. Others, perhaps, are happy that he has retired, even though with the credibility and the charisma he possesses, he is certainly not a man you can keep in the attic, for our good fortune and joy.
Marco Bertolini doesn't do politics, he doesn't give a damn about pleasure and says what he thinks, as he always has, without discounts. He was in a war zone but he is not a warmonger, he has experience, he knows what it means to be a soldier, to have the generosity. Above all, he is a free-brained man who thinks clearly and autonomously before speaking, knows what he says and what he does. This is why he has always been a politically incorrect man. And that's also why we like it.
Now General Marco Bertolini is the national president of the Paratroopers Association of Italy, ANPd'I, a new position, where he will work for his part.
I started as a paratrooper of the ANPd'I, then as an aggregate, when it was the only offer in terms of skydiving. Who wanted to approach this discipline came into the ANPd'I and made the launches, while now the situation is very different and it is possible to have aviation experiences with the schools Enac, with the air clubs in general, which are something different to us for mainly sporting aims that are promised. Our aim, however, is not to teach to become good twirlers, but is to approach a military "cutting" that has, also, an exciting sport component, that of free fall, which I recommend everyone to try because, indeed, it is beautiful. However, the fact of arriving at that activity after passing through a school as it may be that of the ANPd'I, in moral terms, in my opinion is something that is worth. This is our mission, together with that of collaborating with the Armed Forces.
What motivated her, as a boy, to choose to become a paratrooper thunderbolt, a pilot, a raider? While respecting the rules that involves wearing a uniform, all this has an aesthetic sense and knows of futurism, in the sense "marinettiano" of the term ...
I want to mention, first of all, what pushed a boy of my generation to choose the Armed Forces and in particular the Folgore. We were all children of veterans of the Second World War, grandchildren of fighters of the first and all the Italian military enterprises of the first post-war period: people who had not been educated and conditioned to consider the Italians incompatible with the "militariness", as sometimes appears from the compulsory vulgate and current liar. Quite the contrary. For this reason, it was not for us a simple search for a possible adventurous life, or a secure salary in an Italy in full economic boom that offered other possibilities, but a choice of consistent continuity with the values that had fueled our old . We lived an era that had lost many of its ancient seductions, but the idea of a life spent on something noble and inimitable as our country, which we were not ashamed to call Patria, still attracted. We were sure, in other words, that it was worth it.
Today the situation is different. The boys who enter the armed forces have a very indirect relationship with the spirit of the generation that made war and can not draw on his voice, his stories, to fuel a shaky vocation to arms. Indeed, in many schools and many "educators" have been accustomed to considering the soldier as something wrong, of a prejudicial evil. At best, they are therefore led to consider employment in the armed forces as an opportunity to take advantage of, rather than as a duty to be fulfilled. From this approach, which we could call "opportunistic" and which was encouraged by some important and wrong - in my opinion - regulatory measures, such as the one that differentiates the physical selection standards for men and women and the one that allows enrollment for the lower aspirants of 1,60 m, derive some of the current troubles. Among these, an excessive amount of troops of soldiers "in permanent service", ie destined to remain under arms until the age of quiescence. It is easy to understand how this is incompatible with a military instrument that, especially in the positions of greater "tactical" value typical of the Infantry, must be able to count on the physical energy and the aggression of its personnel, qualities incompatible with the "middle age" of those who are looking forward to retirement.
Having said this, I must say that thanks to God the long wave of our traditional civic and family education, above all familiar, still survives. In short, young people who wear uniforms are mostly aware of the real value of the same and of the great responsibilities that follow and they show it systematically when they are faced with the most demanding test, the fight, as often happened in Afghanistan and previously in Iraq and Somalia.
In 362 BC a chasm opened in the Roman Forum. The haruspices said that to close it the Romans would have to sacrifice what they held most dear. Thus it was that the knight Marco Curzio asked if there was a greater good than weapons, that is, value and threw himself into the abyss, with the horse and the same weapons. It is the heroism of the individual who sacrifices himself for the good of the common homeland. And in the sacrifice there is also a strong sense of beauty, because the sacrifice is not an end in itself, it is aesthetic. Even the samurai, like the Templars, were extraordinary warriors who combined the art of weapons with art in general, with beauty. Today, perhaps more than ever, can serving the state and loving the homeland be considered the art par excellence? Does it still make sense?
Of course it makes sense. And as much as I appreciate the reference to the ethics of the samurai, there is no need to tap into Bushido to find confirmation. Since the ancient Rome that you mentioned, Italy has been strewn with traces of an incomparable military tradition, in which the pursuit of efficiency went hand in hand with a great artistic and value sensibility. To give an example, we can mention Leonardo Da Vinci, who is able to share levels of absolute excellence with a great innovative spirit in the field of war and artistic skills that are still unmatched today.
As for sacrifice, it can only be the product of a life in the name of duty, which, contrary to law, looks at what the individual owes to others, rather than what is claimed from them. But who talks about it more? In the parishes themselves, the idea of "foil" as an elementary means of self-education to renunciation in the name of something transcendent to the individual, finds few catechists willing to spend themselves by example and by words. And the result is the current proliferation of innumerable and fanciful "rights" that does not stop even before the grotesque of some of the more recent claims. Yet, our children are not spared, neither in operations, nor in the often degrading routine of our garrisoned units, affected by a lack of resources to devote to even humiliating training. And they are, therefore, to show a continuity of dedication to the Homeland that might seem surprising, for the reasons explained above. In short, they always make us honor.
The raiders of the 9 ° Col Moschin thanks to her, who was also a commander, from 2015 they came back in possession of the frieze with the dagger between branches of oak and laurel. It took seventy years, but we can say that one of the symbols of the Arditi is he finally back home? Can you briefly explain why it took so long?
The Arditi were the purest expression of the combative and combative spirit of the Italian one hundred years ago. And I think it should make you think, and hope, the fact that a nation recently recognized in a unitary state, and therefore in conditions of extreme precariousness, has managed to draw on such a heritage of desperate availability to absolute sacrifice, by workers , students and peasants lent to arms to face the final act of the Risorgimento. But what unites the Arditi of the time to the Incursori del 9 ° today is also the historical path of unity that, from simple selection of the best of the Arma Base (the Infantry then and the paratroopers in this post-war period) has turned into something original and autonomous, no longer simply aimed at opening the way to conventional maneuvering units. This happened on Monte San Gabriele in the first conflict, when the tactical difference and mentality between the assault units and the infantry regiments, which were not able to proceed with the same operating speed, were touched. And the same has happened - even in less dramatic contexts - in the last 40 years, having shown that the raiders have their own characteristics that are only partially attributable to those of the paratroopers, not to mention the other specialties of the Infantry. Considerations followed by the decision to use these units autonomously, without any "ancillary" purpose towards the others destined to make the main effort. And this capacitive divarication, in one case as in the other, did not occur for a conscious choice of the higher order levels, but for "push from below", albeit mediated and guided by commanders of great physical and intellectual courage. In short, the Arditi of yesterday and the Incursori of today were the true creators and creators of themselves.
So that the 9 ° regiment reappropriated itself, after the Flag, also of the other symbols of the old Arditi is logical from the historical point of view and right from an ethical point of view. It was not an easy process, however, being the legacy of the Arditi a heavy burden for a country that seems to refuse to come to terms with its past, as if it were afraid that it would be discovered that our history did not start just seventy years ago . On the contrary, we are the fruit of a much more complex and profound history, of which we have no right to forget or repudiate anything.
Why in Italy is this fear of symbols that refer to the past, however glorious? Why celebrate the defeats in place of victories, Caporetto more than the Piave, as if we were sick with Stockholm Syndrome?
Italy is at the center of the Mediterranean, in conditions of exercising throughout the basin an absolute influence, both from a cultural, economic and political point of view. But the Mare Nostrum has always been at the center of the appetites of others, to which it has therefore never been convenient for an ambitious Italy, committed to the protection of its original strategic interests. Hence the heterodox effort to convince us that we do not have our own interests that deviate from those of the "international community" (a fact denied for example by the "Western" intervention in Libya and the one threatened in Syria). The effect has been to dampen all our ambitions of "power", that is to say of projection outside of a national "sovereignty", therefore internal, in turn reduced to an anachronism to be thrown away. In short, we must think of others to identify and protect our interests. From here to convince us that our role in the international field must be that of the innocent victim of the international conjunctures rather than the protagonist of the same, little passes. And it must be said that this role really appeals to many of us Maitre d ' à think, convinced for atavistic ideological diseducation that it is our supposed genetic criminality and not our artistic, cultural and even political-military inimitability, the fundamental element with which to deal.
Many of ours maître à penser they say that the young people who enlist it do more for a fixed salary than for patriotism, only to then have to congratulate them when they see them operate, but they do it reluctantly. It is also true that many young people are uneducated to sacrifice for their country. Can Special Forces have greater appeal for new generations?
The attribution of a supposed bureaucratic and clerical nature of the current young people who choose the Armed Forces is unjust. And it is not correct to think that whoever enlisted should not do it for professional and economic satisfaction. There is nothing wrong with finding a job that allows you to "bring up" a family and live decently. If you allow me, it is an affirmation that I would call demagogic, more or less like those that would want hungry politicians, or at least with little meaningful economic rewards, to be considered honest.
There is no doubt, in short, that with the current economic and working crisis, many who would not have opted for enlistment today find it desirable, perhaps even convenient, but this also happened in the past and happens today in many countries . For the same reason, many of the old conscripts who in the past, despite having the possibility, refused the "signature" to return instead to the village did so for the same reason.
What is certain, however, is that many young people who may have chosen the Armed Forces as a mainly occupational outlet, find in them motivations that perhaps they could not have imagined before and allow themselves to be involved in an important system of values. And this is not just about the Special Forces, to use a term that I personally hate, but all the Armed Forces, a sign that despite a pounding ideological conditioning of opposite sign, for the Italian the craft of arms continues to be congenial.
Today our Armed Forces are employed in many missions abroad, "peacekeepers" at least until we change that article of the Constitution that says "Italy repudiates war", which sounds a bit hypocritical as well as antihistoric, if only because if you have to attack you must react. The truth is that we are at war with terrorism, Islamic and not. From your experience, how should we defend ourselves seriously, inside and outside national borders?
Terrorism is a big problem. Personally I do not believe that it is a clash of religion, if only because of the simple fact that ours are no longer religious societies as in the past. Indeed, the Western ones are companies that are pleased to flaunt their "secularism" as a figure of a self-referential superiority over the Islamic ones that personally does not convince me. And yet, as far as we are concerned, it has not been for a few years that our boot floats in the Mediterranean in direct contact with societies other than ours with which in the past we have had not only troubled past experiences. But there is no doubt that the risk exists, and can not be ignored. This is a difficult topic to deal with in a simple interview, but it is certain that the solution can not be reduced to the application of even indispensable "preventive" measures of a judicial or investigative nature. Who decides to lose, not only to risk, his own life to attack his enemy, in fact, does not let itself be intimidated by any measure of deterrence. He knows that in the worst case he can escape arrest with a simple "click", however, involving many innocent in his action.
It therefore benefits from an enormous advantage also given by its choice of location, time and mode of action that only partially can be foreseen. For this reason, one must prepare above all to react to these actions, after their occurrence, by employing military units to control, isolate or rake the territory. And to do this it will be necessary to involve the entire military command line, so as not to simply exploit the availability of men to be disseminated in the territory in the passive role of the posts, as often happens, but to exploit the planning and maneuvering skills of the forces that only military commands guarantee. The military instrument, in this regard, offers multiple possibilities for solution, for the availability of technical tools and for well-internalized planning methods, which would be a shame not to exploit.
About losing life in action, the paratroopers of the thunderbolt often celebrate the fallen during the wars, the events, primarily El Alamein. Maybe I'm among those who do it the most ...
Others do it too, but we have a much shorter story, born with the second world war, so the events to remember are relatively few. Ed El Alamein was one of the greatest battles of the Second World War in which we participated and was also a turning point in that war. It was the moment when we lost control of North Africa, so the impossibility of reaching the Middle East. And the defeat of El Alamein, along with that of Stalingrad, are those that have then given way to the defeat of the Second World War ...
And at our "change of tunic", as well as at the beginning of the civil war?
I must say that we, even against this thing, sometimes risk to sprinkle too much ash on our heads. In the sense that it was a really bad thing, however, on balance, we are not the only ones to have the exclusive change of jacket. France, so to speak, was divided into two with a Petain government and a part directly occupied. And then even now, the change in strategy of Trump, for example, compared to what he said at the beginning. So we have our flaws, but we are not the quintessence of wickedness and the spirit of betrayal, even though we certainly have our flaws.
This is always part of the fact that we Italians have the culture of autocrocefiggerci...
It's a national sport that does not do us any good, because now we should do exactly the opposite, we should cling to what we have, and it's a lot. Our fathers, our grandparents, were the architects of the most beautiful country in the world, richer in artistic heritage, where the "western" culture was born, even if it is a term that I do not like very much because it lends itself to being interpreted that I do not like. Indeed, we are something very important and we should hold on to this.
Recently it has been the new national president of the Italian paratroopers association, ANPd'I ...
Well, as I said in my speech to Cecina (when she accepted the presidency, nda), for me it was not a choice that I made lightly, because it is really a radical change of perspective, in the sense that operate in The ambit of mechanics, I would say democratic, is something I'm not used to. So, this is definitely an important step for me. But it is also something that I do very gladly because, in the meantime, I have discovered people of the highest caliber: so many people they give their free time with extreme generosity to make an association work that is very difficult, very complex, very complex. My father was one of the first members of the ANPd'I, like all the paratroopers, the veterans of the time, who were in their thirties, thirty-five years old when they were born. So, in a sense, I continue to stay on a road that I feel mine, that of the paratroopers.
Have you already seen what the limits are, how and where to intervene?
Ours is an association of arms with the mission of being collaborative towards the Armed Forces. And I'm talking about the Armed Forces, I'm not just talking about the paratroopers, who are one of their members of the FA, albeit very important. We must be collaborative with the Armed Forces because they perform a fundamental function for our security but above all because they are the main indicator of our sovereignty, of our independence.
I'll give you a couple of examples: Kosovo, this country that was created from nothing by the intervention of NATO to establish itself as a sovereign state, in the face of the resistance of some European countries that do not recognize its independence, wants to transform the KSF, the Kosovo Security Force, which is a police force with some civil protection capabilities, in the army. And he wants to turn it into an army simply to say: "Look, I'm an independent country". Similarly, it is the long-time wish of the Palestinians, which is decisively opposed by the Israelis. Because, recognizing them as having an army, they should automatically recognize their independence, their sovereignty. Therefore, the army is the most certain indicator of the fact that we are an independent country, at a time when we speak of sovereignty always distorting our noses, as if it had become a negative value.
It is no coincidence that the President of the Republic in Italy is also Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces, and not for example Chief Supreme of the Police or Civil Defense, precisely for the very high symbolic value that the military have in indicating the level of freedom and independence of a state. For us, being aware of this role is fundamental.
Will you insist on this?
This is our mission. That it is not making the launches, nor that of cultivating nostalgia. Of course, the launches are our characteristic, even our vocation, but we mainly serve to maintain a strong bond between our members and not to disperse the values acquired during the military service and contacts with our Armed Forces. Among these, of course, the paratroopers have particular importance for us, with whom we have continuous contacts, both during the ceremonies but also with the aviation activities we organize, often with their generous support. Therefore, the aviation activity is a peculiar activity of ours that distinguishes us, as well as a complication that others do not have. But I repeat, it is also an opportunity, because it gives us the opportunity to make a positive impact on young people and aggregates who have not done military service, giving them the opportunity to get closer to military parachuting and, above all, to the value system that distinguishes it.
In many Arma associations it sometimes happens that there are people who, as long as they have been on duty, had their role and made a team while now that they are no longer fighting, each one projects his ego and maybe one is boycotting each other. then there is the other aspect, those in service who look at the ex sufficiently. Is this problem also from you?
The paratrooper is an individualist who, within a military structure, therefore "harnessed" by military discipline, puts his will to do and his spirit of initiative at the service of unity. And the characteristic of the military paratroopers, compared to the others, has been and still is this aggression towards what they have around, this great desire to find new roads and so on. The challenge consists precisely in making sure that their individuality does not turn into a continuous search for "demarcation" from others when, within the ANPd'I, where there is no formal discipline, the temptation of " do it yourself ". This is due to the proliferation, characteristic "genetically" parachutist, to differentiate for the badges, or for the headgear, as in the case of the green Basques, rightly authorized by General Fantini.
If this desire represents a better way to anchor oneself to the spirit with which we had come into contact during military service, it is a good thing, but if it were to become the way to mark a behavioral difference or, worse, spiritual, between young and not younger people who made the same choice, it would be something very dangerous. I must say that, from what I see instead, Basque Amaranth and Basque Green (or Alpine paratroopers with their noble Bantam) continue to highlight a beautiful identity of spirit. In short, I must say that I found great attention and great sharing from an ethical point of view, from a point of view of the reasons of the association, by all, despite the formal differences between infantrymen, artillerymen, carabinieri, raiders, acquirers, alpine or even Navy raiders of our association.
What does Italy need today in the military field?
It certainly needs more attention for the Army in general, so even for paratroopers who are often invisible to some hyper-ideologized sectors of public opinion. Certainly, a very critical sector are the Maneuvering Forces, the heavy forces, with particular reference to the armored units. Of course, the paratroopers are indispensable, but only if they are integrated into a credible instrument that ensures the resources necessary for all. So we must have the utmost respect for others and I must say that, by now, this is acquired by everyone because, in fact, the reality in operations has led us to touch the importance of all the components of the Land Forces, including there are also the carabinieri. If the weapon, in fact, has acquired the role of Armed Force, this does not make it an entity in itself, able to operate independently in combat and its insertion in the terrestrial instrument (aeroterrestre for Tuscania together with the Folgore) is natural .
In the various versions of the White Book of Defense, there is an increasing insistence on the need to make the various Armed forces cooperate with each other. What do you think?
This is the so-called "interforzization", a horrible word that indicates a need felt in all countries and by all the Armed Forces.
Until Bosnia, so we talk about the half of the 90 years, the operations were carried out by the Army General Staff. That is, the Army Chief of Staff led the operations with Air Force and Navy that were "supporting" towards him. The same thing happened first in Lebanon and then in Somalia, where the commander of operations was General Canino, the Chief of Staff of the Army, with a reinforcing air and naval component. This is no longer enough. First, the Chief of Staff of the Defense was a primus inter pares with respect to the Army, Navy and Air Force, had no authority to give orders, rather coordinated. Now, with the reform of the summits, whoever commands is the chief of staff of the Defense, at this time General Graziano. And General Graziano carries out operations through the COI, the Interforze Operational Command and, for special operations, the COFS. What the White Paper aims at now is to increase this capacity for inter-force management, so that military operations are managed with a univocal and shared vision, not by the individual High Armed Operational Command Commands but by the Inter-Operational Summit Command , (COI) or by the Command for Special Forces Operations (COFS), reporting directly to the Chief of Staff of the Defense, sole responsible for the use of forces.
So, what the White Book promises, is to give the Chief of Defense Staff a credible and deeply cohesive tool with which to use the various Armed Forces in a harmonious way. But with the current scarcity of economic resources it is not a small task.
She has been on many hot fronts of the world, often as a commander. Near us there are our former colonies where we are present with our soldiers. Apart from Libya, which still has a fluctuating situation, how do you see Italy's relations with Somalia?
We are there because, evidently, when this mission started, which is the same European Union that some use to justify the aberrant provisions of law of which they are promoters, we felt obliged not to call ourselves out and to re-propose ourselves as a leader: we are in fact that we put the main component. Somali would like a greater Italian presence, especially to older people who still speak our language, unlike the younger ones. But now Italy has almost completely disappeared from that beautiful country, except for our few soldiers, and it's a pity: it would be nice to do more, and if we only remember how those people gave us, absolutely returned by our settlers, some other effort we would do it. But there are very uncomfortable memories to cultivate, unfortunately.
The usual guilt syndrome? Syndrome that do not have the former colonialist countries like England, France, Spain, Holland ...
But yes, we were a colonial power and I think we would have duties towards a country that remembers our presence with respect, gratitude and affection, I would say. I have touched it frequently during my many visits to that country and for this reason I am very saddened to see the difficulty with which we correspond to their hopes. In Mogadishu I met many of my fellow academics who remember an Italy that perhaps no longer exists, and I have often felt humiliated in not being able to help them as I would have liked.
