There is a conflict in Europe where it is really difficult not to take sides. This is because, even when you don't, you are filed ex officio and thrown on unwanted reporter lists. A photographer of ours last year had the "fault" of testifying the front in Ukraine. On his return he received a letter informing him that for 5 years he would no longer be able to carry out his work in the country.
Despite this, we are sure that the mistakes of some extremist leaders (or governments) should not be attributed to an entire country.
To understand what is happening in the eyes of Kiev, we met SE Yevhen Perelygin, the Ukrainian ambassador to Italy. A helpful person with valuable diplomatic experience behind him, he gave us his point of view.
When one thinks of Ukraine for years, one has only war in mind ...
20 years ago Ukraine was known in Italy for the Chernobyl tragedy. Today for the aggression in the Donbass. But we can say that it is also known for the footballer of Milan Ševčenko!
Today's Ukraine is a country - European - of 45 million inhabitants with the largest territory on the continent. The cultural level is very high. The percentage of engineers, for example, is the highest in Europe. We feel European from a historical, geographical and today political point of view.
From Udine to the Ukrainian border it takes eight hours by car. Less than from Udine to Naples!
The crisis in the Donbass is essentially a legacy of the dissolution of the USSR. Populations of Russian ethnicity are distributed in all the former Soviet republics. Obviously in Ukraine the numbers and the economic interests have made the difference generating the current scenario. Is there really a political solution to all this?
The current situation is a consequence of the Kremlin policy that for many years has decided to restore its influence in the area of the former Soviet Union and beyond. President Putin's goal is to create a new empire under the leadership of Moscow. The political solution exists, evident to every reasonable person, and consists in: withdrawing Russian troops from Ukrainian territory, including Crimea, stopping arms supplies from Russia to the Donbass, restoring complete control of the Ukrainian-Russian border to Ukraine.
After this trial, I assure you, in the Donbass region transparent and regular administrative elections can be carried out immediately under the control of the international community. If Russia takes these steps, we can talk about scientific, economic and entrepreneurial projects. The occupied area is rich in industrial settlements.
And if, by voting, they ask to be reunited with Russia? The intangibility of international borders is the pivot around which the position of Kiev and the West revolves around the Donbass crisis. Based on this the referendum on the separation of Crimea was considered invalid. The international community in the 2008 behaved differently for Kosovo, which today is recognized by more than 80 countries. When should the principle of self-determination of peoples be taken into consideration?
If you have decided to make historical parallels between Crimea and past events in European history, I think that instead of Kosovo it would be more appropriate to recall the referendum for the annexation of Austria by Nazi Germany. In March of the 1938 the German invasion took place. After a month, Hitler held a referendum in the occupied area. The percentage of Austrian votes in favor of annexing Germany was 99,73%. However, the consultation was under German military control!
The same thing happened in the Crimea.
If we want to talk about the right to self-determination we should speak exclusively of a native people: the Crimean Tatars.
What do we see today? In the best Stalinist traditions, the Russian occupation authorities are persecuting the Tartar people: they arrest and kill their activists, close schools and the media and repress any of their identity activities. Because of these tragic events, we are now talking about the "survival" of the Crimean Tatars as a people. And this I do not say, I am quoting the last resolution of the European Parliament. 75 years ago Stalin forcibly deported the people of Crimea. The return began only with independence. 25 tartars have returned in the last 200.000 years. Originally, before deportation, they were 400.000.
Ukraine and Russia are the two largest Slavic states in the world, they are Orthodox countries, Ukrainians have had Russian as a second language until a few years ago. Kiev was the cradle of Russian civilization ... in short, the two countries have a deeply intertwined history. Is a future in which Moscow and Kiev are far away credible?
Moscow and Kiev have always been different civilizations. At the end of the first millennium, Kiev was the center of the Eastern European area when Moscow did not even exist. At that time Kiev was the capital of a strong medieval state, which was called "Kievan Rus'", as well as the center of the Orthodox Church.
For over three hundred years Kiev was dominated by Moscow as part of the Russian empire first and then the Soviet one.
But we have always been different. In recent years, Kiev has embarked on a European road, while Moscow shows a constant tendency towards dictatorship, militarization, media censorship, and the violation of human rights.
I am sure that the future roads of Ukraine and Russia will be far away.
In the Netherlands there was a referendum which said "no" to an enlargement of the EU to the east. Do you think Ukraine's future is with Brussels?
We are well aware of the final results of the referendum on the Association Agreement between Ukraine and the European Union. And we respect the voice of every voter in the Netherlands.
We must also take into consideration that, according to Dutch legislation, the referendum is advisory. We await the final decision on the ratification of the Agreement by the Government and the Parliament of the Netherlands. I am sure that the decision will be taken in the interests of the Netherlands, of a united Europe and of Ukraine which is an integral part of this Europe and will continue its path towards integration.
Ambassador, how old are you?
53.
He will have done military service under the Soviet Union. Having therefore known the Russians well, I would like to make a parenthesis. Many believe that Russia is implementing an aggressive policy towards the west. However, the eastward enlargement of NATO starting with the 1999 is undeniable. What do you think?
When I served in the Soviet army, NATO was the enemy. For my generation it is sometimes difficult to adapt to the new reality.
However, one fact must be acknowledged: NATO has for many decades been an effective alliance - without alternatives - for collective security. Every European country that respects the criteria of the Alliance has an undeniable right to adhere to this system. In its time, Italy has chosen to be part of it. Fifteen years ago this road was traveled by several Eastern European countries. Ukraine is also making the same choice. No one, except the Alliance itself and the people of the applying State, must make decisions about it.
Today around half of Ukrainians are in favor of joining NATO.
From the 2010 to the 2014, by law, we set ourselves the goal of not being part of a military bloc. The result was the loss of the Crimea and the aggression in the Donbass. Not having been part of it was a clear mistake.
Because we should not make the same choice that Italy has freely made in the past!
Ambassador, speaking of Italy, I would avoid saying that it was a free choice. The world was shared in Yalta and Italy "decided" to join NATO as others to join the Warsaw Pact ...
The United States has played an important role since the beginning of the crisis, pushing the EU towards sanctions against Russia. Do you think the American position is useful for peace?
I don't think we should say that the United States or the European Union have taken this measure for Ukraine. We have an exceptional situation.
Who led to the sanctions? The Russia.
What did we see? A country that violated human rights and made 10.000 flee people.
Sanctions are not a "task" of politics, they are a "tool" to push for respect for international rights and agreements. Even against a strong figure like the Russian president.
The United States imposed sanctions when Iraq invaded Kuwait or Serbia attacked Croatia and Bosnia.
Such harsh sanctions were imposed at the time of the Soviet Union due to the invasion of Afghanistan.
They are not a measure against Russia, I am against the violation of international law.
All countries must be given equal dignity.
He will know the Russians better than me. Do you think the objective of sanctions is achievable?
Even not knowing them, history responds. The embargo was effective, sooner or later.
However, there are not many alternatives to sanctions.
Let's talk about the recent history of Ukraine. Russians and Ukrainians lived together peacefully. Could there have been internal political errors, such as nationalist measures, which led to the war?
It is a personal opinion. Asked if the authorities have made mistakes in the last 25 years, I answer yes. Every government has committed it in domestic politics. A unitary model has never been developed. There was a split between a Russian-speaking Ukraine and a nationalist.
Today there is no longer this separation. The difference today is between a majority in favor of the European Union and a 15-20% who misses the Soviet Union.
There is another country in Europe with a similar history, Ireland. Ten years ago I served there as an ambassador. Ireland has overcome this division. The violence of the past is no longer present. I have studied and understood the results and the historical evolution of that cohabitation.
Let's talk about divisions. Years ago, a Ukrainian official told me that during the Cold War there was serious concern about an invasion by NATO. Instead, we were constantly worried about an attack by the Warsaw Pact.
It was an ideological policy of the communist regime. Military lessons were given in the last two years of secondary school. A Kalashnikov had to be disassembled or reassembled in 25-30 seconds ... We grew up with a constant threat to defend ourselves from.
When there is a problem of social or economic development, politics imposes an enemy.
This is happening in Russia today: the economic crisis is attributed to sanctions and the encirclement of the country by NATO. But is not so.
30 years ago it was not for NATO that the system failed. It happened due to old economic development rules. But NATO was the constant enemy to fear.
What time did he get to reassemble the Kalashnikov?
At school I didn't get "positive" results. However, during military service the minimum time was higher: 40 seconds.
At the time it must have been hard to do military service. The officer I met told me that he had returned home at the end of his military service, after more than two years!
It was not Italy where you try to go home every weekend. During the entire service you could return to the family two or three times if you were lucky.
The first six months of military service were terrible. We lived in tents in the woods with temperatures that could drop to -20 °. However, after the sixth month I received the rank of sergeant and was assigned a team. We had armored vehicles - those that today could correspond to the Lynx - and tanks.
Wagons were T ...?
T-72.
I remember that on the walls of the barracks NATO soldiers were constantly represented as enemies ...
To conclude, do you believe that Italians understand what happens in Ukraine? Can Italy do something more and more concrete to resolve the crisis?
Certainly yes, more can always be done. However - and I say this beyond the protocol - the Renzi government has done a lot. Bilateral relations between Italy and Ukraine are excellent. We also have collaborations and relationships between our ministries of defense.
The Ukrainian community in Italy is numerous.
There is a favorable and available position of Italy towards strengthening relations with Ukraine in all sectors of mutual interest.
The solid position of the Italian authorities in the G7, in the European Union and in other international organizations shows an important role for Italy in promoting peace in the east of Ukraine.
Ukrainian energy infrastructure is dated. Do you know who was indicated in the G7 field for modernizing energy systems? Italy!
Let's hope. Given that, with the "European" sanctions, I heard that Italian products in Russia have been replaced by German ones.
It's not true! The consequences of the sanctions are mostly propaganda.
Italian exports to Russia have fallen by 30%, but if we analyze the statistics we can see that Chinese exports to the same country have fallen by 40%.
Years ago 10 hryvnia (official currency of Ukraine, nda) were worth 1 euros. Today for that euro we need 28 hryvnia.
This year, however, my country's economy will grow by 2%. A turnaround.
The problem in Russia is similar. The ruble has devalued. There are no less Russian tourists in Italy because of the sanctions. There is less for the loss of their purchasing power.
In 2013 Italy has exported two billion euros to Ukraine. After two years, due to the war, the value was reduced to one billion.
During the first quarter of this year your exports have risen by 30%.
